Patent Debate

[solarlab]

Since the thread this post was meant for was closed while I was typing I'll just put this here and it can be deleated as
you all see fit!

Confusion between Patents, Open Source, and how it all works...

At the risk of starting a "flame war" it would be prudent to understand that Patents are,
in fact, Open Source. Patents are intended to provide an Inventor 20, or so, years of
protection for his Intellectual Property.

By law, you, as an individual, can build up to 5 devices based on the intellectual property
described in a patent; BUT, you can not sell them for profit without paying the Inventor
some sort of Royalty or other form of reward for the Inventors work. Fair enough.

This is designed to provide the Inventor a mechanism to, amongst other things, raise
funds in order to manufacture, distribute and market his Invention. Thus allowing others,
who do not have the skill or resources, to still have access to the Invention by simply
paying for a finished product - usually at a much reduced price than what a One-Off
home-built device would cost (economy-of-scale).

For some strange reason this concept appears to have been forgotten,  missed, or
ignored in the most of the OU type Forums. IMHO this is by design - e.g. an Inventor
is bullied into providing his intellectual property, without protection, to a skeeming
few; who, in turn, will steal the invention and quietly seek their own patent. There
are a few instances that come to mind but are not worth delving into here.

Note, to the best of my knowledge a Provisional Patent is a very brief description of
the "idea" and costs about $150 to register it with the Patent and Trademarks
Office. It endures for a year or so, unless you upgrade it as time goes and provides
a "first invented" date of record. Once filed, you can then openly discuss the idea.

BTW, an Open Source device would likely not achieve much, if any, widespread
distribution and would only bennefit the very few who have the skill and resources
to fabricate a couple of devices. Makes sense.

That's the way it's done - and I don't find any fault in the process - so I guess the
system, as it is, could be classed as a "Bad Attitude!"

SL

[Jim Mac]

Hello..

Although I prefer Open-Source all the way, I understand Patents hold merit.

But if the poster is going that route and not ready to share details, there is no need to post about it. Perhaps when the patent is approved and granted the user will be ready to share details.  

Yes patents are supposed to include all pertinent information which would allowed someone "skilled at the art" to reproduce the work. But all too often, the patent is arranged in a way to hide or not disclose crucial parts, which make it basically worthless to readers and just another mystery.   Many want to enjoy the profit-protection and deny self-builders the information needed, which makes a mockery of the whole system.

I will and do allow patents to be shared and posted. But when a user starts playing the "I know a secret you don't know" game, the game ends there.  They can go elsewhere and look for financial backers.

Open Source device would likely not achieve much, if any, widespread
distribution and would only bennefit the very few who have the skill and resources
to fabricate a couple of devices. Makes sense.

I prefer to see it as if a new technology comes out, the door is open for anyone to make profit by selling completed units. This spurs competition and competitive pricing, which allows for the less fortunate among us to afford a unit.  I prefer this over a patent owner being enticed by a fortune 100 company to gain the rights, then humanity stays in-debt to corporate giants who rape and pillage us for profits. If you want to see examples, simply research pharmaceutical patents held by major companies who charge insane amounts for a pill that literally costs pennies to produce.  

Yes I understand the argument is they need to fund their R&D departments, yada yada yada, but as the less fortunate live out their last days, the company higher-ups enjoy life in their Malibu houses drinking the finest wine.

[Escumo]

Exactamente las patentes son un engaño administrativo para adueñarse de las ideas que transmiten y con ello limitar las posibilidades domésticas o caseras de realizar cualquier invento, creo es más certero transmitir las ideas por este tipo de canales abiertos a gente sin interés económico qué poseen una obsesión. por descubrir el método para extraer energía sin otro beneficio más que el de compartirlas con los demás de forma altruista, todos sabemos cómo está organizado el mundo que nos tocó vivir.

Las patentes son precisamente un engaño administrativo para apropiarse de las ideas que transmiten y limitar así las posibilidades domésticas o caseras de realizar cualquier invento. Creo que es más acertado transmitir ideas a través de este tipo de canales abiertos a personas sin interés económico que tienen una obsesión. por descubrir el método para extraer energía sin otro beneficio que compartirla con otros de forma altruista, todos sabemos cómo está organizado el mundo en el que vivimos.

[solarlab]

Thanks for NOT cutting-off a valuable source of information and discussion!

Agreed - Patents are a two-way street and can be suject to abuse; but they can also be good.

I believe they were initially conceived to foster the exchange of original ideas, methods, and
techniques while still providing an incentive to the inventor for sharing his knowledge.

This scheme also provides a system whereby capital funding can be secured from investors
without the added concern that their investment could be usurrped without recourse.
Investing your money in something with no form of protection would be foolish, at best.

I'll cite an example - Holcomb published an extremely well written, detailed, patent containing
a method of utilizing a technique that is very well known but heretofore never considered
in the development of excess energy (the use of a metal's B-H Curve as a gain mechanism).

We all made Electromagnets from a coil of wire and a nail in grade school but leveraging
that scheme into an excess electrical energy generator has seemed to elude many of us
until Holcomb brought it to light, including the many other related, but required, things.

Studying and analyzing one of his patents has lead to a whole new paradine of energy
generation ideas and developments. So I thank him for that - without sharing his insight
(through the Patent Process) I would still be in the "dark" and the ensueing designs would
have likely never happened. BTW, these were never brought to light in an understandable
nor usable manner on any Forum that I'm aware of.

Patents are sometimes filed to "keep the technology" in the "Public Domain." I recall seeing
one such patent filing wherein it stated that very objective within the actual patent.

Note that ALL sources of information can be and ARE valuable. Don't cut-off any avenue.

Anyway - that's my 2 cents worth...

SL

[Shylo]

Distraction.  Distraction

[solarlab]

I agree - looking at a thread called "Patent Debate" and gaining a bit of knowledge
is really nothing more than a "Distraction Distraction"

Good observation and conclusion!

[floor]

I'm not opposed to patents.
I'm not opposed to someone seeking financing for r and d.

I think that any amazing new device, which can safely deliver the world
free energy should be open sourced.

Why ?

1. To spur more research and understanding of whatever the means and principles
by which a free energy device functions.

2. Variations of and improvements upon such a device could still be patented,

3. In the case of an open sourcing of the essential elements of the method only,
one prevents the patenting of only the essential elements.
and
this can motivate a commerce based on innovation.

4. New understandings are likely to spur other new understandings..

[solarlab]

Don't get me wrong - I'm a true fan of Open Sourcing. Done a lot of it, primarily involving
electronic, microwave and computer design circuits. But I'm also very pragmatic, especially
when looking at Excess Energy Generation devices (a.k.a OU...).

I'll briefly explain: We're all aware there have been, and still are, many "Fake" devices
out there. You know; send $50 for the plans, send $1000+ and get on the list, etc.

So, "ole' six pack Joe" just aint gunna fall for it anymore! Too good to be true - well it
probably is...

This creates a BIG PROBLEM for a legitimate device or technique. You can publish a true
device in any number of places but the scepticisim still remains, even with YT proofs.

One option - get it into a Big Box Store; have the customer walk by and see it. Since it's
in a "Big Box Store" the credability is initially "there." You can always return it as well.

But, to get it into the Big Box Store you have to have it validated, verified, approved
tested, and demonstrated, plus you need enough units to satisfy an initial order.

Not sure publishing a design or scheme in an adhock fashion will actually accomplish
those requirements for you. Your "Great Idea" will simply wither-on-the-vine like so
many other great ideas. Think about it!

However, we're all always looking for other good methods of exposure that might work...
Publishing an article in a Trade Magazine works sometimes - you might even get a call?

Maybe one of those "Fund Me" things? Although most of the requirements still remain.

[floor]

SolarLab quote
"At the risk of starting a "flame war" it would be prudent to understand that Patents are,
in fact, Open Source. Patents are intended to provide an Inventor 20, or so, years of
protection for his Intellectual Property. "
END QUOTE

B.S. ... Open source is not patented and cannot be patented, major difference !.
and also
Unless a government quashes / conceals a patent.

SolarLab quote
"This is designed to provide the Inventor a mechanism to, amongst other things, raise
funds in order to manufacture, distribute and market his Invention. Thus allowing others,
who do not have the skill or resources, to still have access to the Invention by simply
paying for a finished product - usually at a much reduced price than what a One-Off
home-built device would cost (economy-of-scale). "
END QUOTE

Open source can accomplish the same things, especially if it is IN PART, patented.


SolarLab quote
"For some strange reason this concept appears to have been forgotten,  missed, or
ignored in the most of the OU type Forums. IMHO this is by design

- e.g. an Inventor
is bullied into providing his intellectual property, without protection, to a skeeming
few; who, in turn, will steal the invention and quietly seek their own patent. There
are a few instances that come to mind but are not worth delving into here. "
END QUOTE

1. Sure bud.
2. Wow, bullied huh, but are not worth delving into here.
3. Is this the fox guarding the hens ? (adition to original post)
4. That which is given freely cannot be stolen.

SolarLab quote
"BTW, an Open Source device would likely not achieve much, if any, widespread
distribution and would only bennefit the very few who have the skill and resources
to fabricate a couple of devices. Makes sense."
END QUOTE

Do you mean like for example... the common mouse trap ? Doesn't make sense.

SolarLab quote
That's the way it's done - and I don't find any fault in the process - so I guess the
system, as it is, could be classed as a "Bad Attitude!"
END QUOTE

Oh noble defender of the weak. You owe me one for that misrepresentation / misinterpretation /
your misunderstanding of that which you are quoting from me (above),

---

SolarLab quote
"I'll cite an example - Holcomb published an extremely well written, detailed, patent containing
a method of utilizing a technique that is very well known but heretofore never considered
in the development of excess energy (the use of a metal's B-H Curve as a gain mechanism).

We all made Electromagnets from a coil of wire and a nail in grade school but leveraging
that scheme into an excess electrical energy generator has seemed to elude many of us
until Holcomb brought it to light, including the many other related, but required, things.

Studying and analyzing one of his patents has lead to a whole new paradine of energy
generation ideas and developments. So I thank him for that - without sharing his insight
(through the Patent Process) I would still be in the "dark" and the ensueing designs would
have likely never happened. BTW, these were never brought to light in an understandable
nor usable manner on any Forum that I'm aware of. "
END QUOTE

I am so pleased that you are going to be the one who brings these to light in an understandable
and usable manner on any forum.

[Jim Mac]

If someone shows a Free-Energy device with details on the build, it will be replicated. And if it works- it would spread like wildfire. Hell, even ones where the details are not shared spread like wildfire.  Just look at the kapanadze generator.  Youtube is filled with replications.  How many have tried replicating the Adams motor?  Now imagine if 1 worked and they shared the missing ingredient (if there is one).

Some of the world's best platforms are fully Opensource and known by the world world. ie. Wordpress, Linux, Python, Perl, PHP, OpenOffice, etc, etc.  People see the merit and join the cause. The power behind an active open-source community is immense and often surpasses the ability of private projects for profit.  Show a working OU model, and I can guarantee there will be no problem herding up a group of people with resources that are willing to chip-in.

Patenting is a move of greed. The act is fully motivated by profits, and any claim to the contrary is pure propaganda. Now the patent holder is suing people for infringement, slander, and a whole sticky web of deceit entails. Investors sue, buyers sue, manufacturers sue, and it may even turn into criminal charges.   Don't believe me, just look at the situations the Patent Holder of the H...  Device which was mentioned by another (but is now off limits to discuss on this forum  and most others).  I am not part of it, have no knowledge, and I wouldn't go near it with a 100 foot pole.  So please keep any talk about the HOl...M  project off this forum.  The rules of the forum will be updated to reflect this.

We are here with pure intentions, not driven by profits, to change the world. To alleviate suffering to those without heat, to make it affordable to run indoor greenhouses year round to feed the people in colder climates and to keep produce localized, to put an end to unnecessary foreign wars that revolve around "Oil Deals", and enrich the daily lives of the ordinary person.

Those interested in purely profits and legal protection of those profits will need to go elsewhere.