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Jim's Spiral Motors
#11
Brilliant thanks for the update! This does sound really promising and an impressive idea you've had here. Just bought the extra magnets so will be a while before they arrive. I made a quick model with the 20mm length magnets and on a 150mm drum but it seems I need around 30 magnets for just 1 loop so would need way more than what I currently have sadly. Excited to try this idea out though! I am also wondering what would happen if we build the spiral magnets into a tube and that becomes the stator with the bar magnets or other shapes becoming the central rotor in the middle hmm just a thought though.
In the meantime with the magnets I already have I am going to try to replicate this patent US6,433,452 B1 to see if there is anything to it though I don't feel too sure about this patent but thought I'd give it a go anyway. Here is a picture of the model done so far.
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#12
Awesome GT899.  Make sure to open a thread and share the results!

Here's the next update:

OK I got all the magnets installed and did some basic tests..  As the gate gets eliminated, we start to lose rotational force accordingly.  When the spiral passes the top of the stator magnet the direction changes and instead of pulling UP, it starts to attract the magnets above it DOWN, thus counteracting the direction of rotation...  If perfectly balanced, there will be a point where the rotor spins freely as if there are no magnets.

Placing a bucking magnet on the top pole of the stator magnet adds the force back.

So this will take some experimenting and tweaking if there is anything here.  I can already think of several methods that could possibly deal with this.  

Let's see where it goes.  Definitely worth the effort
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#13
Very interesting results yes there is definitely plenty of room for further experimentation here. Yes definitely worth the effort and trying is the only way to find out for sure. Good work on your progress so far!
Concerning that patent however, I am not sure if it will work as it states that it needs magnet shielding to operate. Funnily enough alibaba sellers claim that they sell actual monopole magnets. Not sure if these could be used in such builds. Will see about ordering some to see if they really are as claimed.
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#14
GT899,

If you are still building this, I would try marking the rotor exactly where your stator magnet begins and ends.  Then flip the polarity of the rotor magnets above and below the stator magnet ends.  

If you need clarification, I can explain better.  Basically, once you pass the pole of a magnet the direction of pull changes.  So if it is pulling the spiral UP, as soon as a magnet passes the top of the stator, that rotor magnet wants to pull back down. So when we eliminate the gate, we equally eliminate rotation.

But if the magnets above and below the stator magnet were reversed (polarity wise) it may mitigate that effect
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#15
(04-14-2024, 11:54 PM)Jim Mac Wrote: GT899,

If you are still building this, I would try marking the rotor exactly where your stator magnet begins and ends.  Then flip the polarity of the rotor magnets above and below the stator magnet ends.  

If you need clarification, I can explain better.  Basically, once you pass the pole of a magnet the direction of pull changes.  So if it is pulling the spiral UP, as soon as a magnet passes the top of the stator, that rotor magnet wants to pull back down. So when we eliminate the gate, we equally eliminate rotation.

But if the magnets above and below the stator magnet were reversed (polarity wise) it may mitigate that effect

I am still waiting on the magnets to arrive for this project. I have so many ideas I want to try out though. I have also been trying to source very long thin bar magnets with the poles orientated length ways but they seem very rare to find, the poles are always orientated on the largest face of the magnets. I came across a magnet motor patent recently which describes the importance of using such magnets (long bar magnets with their poles far apart) for this design so the poles do not interfere with eachother (from what I understand) Will attach the PDF for that patent here.

I am very interested in your idea about flipping the polarity of the magnets on the spiral rotor idea. That is a very clever approach. Could you explain a bit more how you would go about flipping them though? Electromagnets instead perhaps?


.pdf   US2011095544A1_Original_document_20240414192735.pdf (Size: 1.02 MB / Downloads: 7)
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#16
Those types of magnets are out there somewhere. I have a few left. I bought 20 of these ones before 

https://www.magnet4sale.com/n42-1-2x1-2x...ck-magnet/. But now they are out of stock from that supplier. 

I am not prepared to present or explain a proposal on the magnet arrangements of the spiral yet, because it is such a head twist to try to visualize it. Kind of have to experiment with it to see what it does 
But I'm glad you're not giving up, because I feel that spiral has a lot of possible potential.
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#17
(04-16-2024, 09:36 AM)GT899 Wrote: I am still waiting on the magnets to arrive for this project. I have so many ideas I want to try out though. I have also been trying to source very long thin bar magnets with the poles orientated length ways but they seem very rare to find, the poles are always orientated on the largest face of the magnets...

You could try attaching two smaller magnets to a length of ordinary steel. North attached at one end and south attached at the other end. The steel will be magnetized forming one long magnet. The steel needs to be the same size as the magnets or even slightly larger.
A mix of epoxy and steel powder used sparingly at the joints makes a slightly better join without much leakage. Wait a day or two, until the epoxy cures and the steel is fully magnetized.
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#18
I am definitely going to be trying a lot of things out once the printer is sorted, I am flooded with ideas.

Cadman, the use of steel to form long magnets is absolutely brilliant. Thanks for the suggestion, this could allow the design of interesting shaped magnets using different shapes of steel and having the poles facing different angles even.

Jim after your suggestion I've started designing an idea for the spiral rotor to flip the magnets using flip levers so instead of having the magnets inserted into a rigid cylinder rotor they are instead all mounted into individual swivel tubes that are coupled freely onto axles which are then all connected to the same rotor disc but still held into the same spiral formation and each swivel tube has prongs that catch a 'lever' thereby pushing them around as the combined rotor rotates but I think this may be over complicated as you would then need to create some form of bumpers to stop them rotating too much and also making sure it is timed right. However electrical assisted rotation/flip of each individual magnet might be a better more simple approach or simply using electromagnets instead.

Anyway I am just rambling my thoughts aloud. I got some more ideas to try out too but am away for a week so won't be experimenting further until I am back and also once the printer is sorted.
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#19
(04-16-2024, 09:56 PM)GT899 Wrote: I am definitely going to be trying a lot of things out once the printer is sorted, I am flooded with ideas.

Cadman, the use of steel to form long magnets is absolutely brilliant. Thanks for the suggestion, this could allow the design of interesting shaped magnets using different shapes of steel and having the poles facing different angles even.

Jim after your suggestion I've started designing an idea for the spiral rotor to flip the magnets using flip levers so instead of having the magnets inserted into a rigid cylinder rotor they are instead all mounted into individual swivel tubes that are coupled freely onto axles which are then all connected to the same rotor disc but still held into the same spiral formation and each swivel tube has prongs that catch a 'lever' thereby pushing them around as the combined rotor rotates but I think this may be over complicated as you would then need to create some form of bumpers to stop them rotating too much and also making sure it is timed right. However electrical assisted rotation/flip of each individual magnet might be a better more simple approach or simply using electromagnets instead.

Anyway I am just rambling my thoughts aloud. I got some more ideas to try out too but am away for a week so won't be experimenting further until I am back and also once the printer is sorted.

Interesting, but quite complicated..

I was thinking more in the line where the magnets do not move.  Place a spiral totally over the magnet and it also spins to the gate trying to get the closest magnet to TDC.   So basically we have 3 spirals, one above, one below, and 1 aligned with the stator magnet.  

Maybe the polarities and spiral directions can be aligned so the gate locations to cancel each other out. Like when the top is being attracted to the last magnet with the most force, the center is trying to escape at the strangest force. 

I am not exactly sure if the geometry will work yet, but we can alter more variables with this than a standard (single plane) rotor.  We can control the direction of the rotation with the direction of each individual spiral.
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#20
Here is my next planned test..

   

The spirals are 1/2 revolution each in opposite directions.  And I will try using 4 stator magnets.  So when the gates are aligned with 2 stator magnets, we have the other 2 stator magnets in prime-position giving it the juice to break through (I hope).
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